“but I don’t need privacy, I don’t have anything to hide!”
Secretly? Doubt it. Some are even loudly proud of doing it in the name of “saving you money”. Long as its out in the open, ok. Do they tap into google drive and waze data though?
No they have been tapping into data directly from people’s cars and that’s even worse and more unexpected
They cannot tap into car data if the car doesn’t record data. People must know that they get in cars that are capable of doing that.
I doubt my 2015, Skoda can record any data as it barely has electric windows. Surely if it doesn’t have Onstar or whatever it’s called now, it cannot be recording data. Perhaps people were unaware that their data was going to be available to these companies but they did know at some level that the data could be recorded. It’s like buying a house with security cameras and then never wondering where the security cameras lead.
People have a blind spot for cars though, since it isn’t connected to any wires, they feel as if it can’t possibly be network connected, but of course it can.
My 2016 Ford did record data on hard stops and high-g turns and sent a report to my phone to help improve driving efficiency. It was an opt in feature and promoted as a way to increase range since it was a hybrid. However all that stopped when the 3g network was shut down and ford decided they wanted to charge 2k for a 4g upgrade
Yeah that might apply to all the newer connected vehicles, but mine is still just mine without any kind of wireless systems in it. Only way insurance could track my habits is with waze or google drive on my phone
There are dealerships that install aftermarket devices in their cars.
There are tutorials on YouTube: How to start your car if it has been remotely turned off by the dealership.
It ranges between disconnecting the battery and starting the car before the device from the dealership has connected to how to find it under your dash.
Yeah i figured as much but my vehicle is 17 years old and not really worth the hassle
Driving behavior analysis, or telematics, as the insurance industry calls it, could be better for consumers, leading to personalized rates that are more fair. Plus, if people have to pay more for their risky driving, they may drive more cautiously, leading to safer roads. But this will happen only if drivers are aware that their behavior is being monitored.
I’m so sick of this shit.
Just like the stop sign cameras, this only increases safety by penalizing and then monetizing minor mistakes that humans make. This is not about safety, it’s about maximizing income through technological micromanaging of drivers who have not caused an accident and were not in danger of causing one.
You’d also have to be a damn fool not to realize that all the data they’re collecting may not apply to their rate structure today, but in the future that rate structure will change, and suddenly a history of driver data you let them gather about you goes from being unremarkable to indicative of a problem.
The shareholders are demanding a blood sacrifice, so rates suddenly go up for people that have a driver score beneath a certain threshold where previously that threshold was higher.
Or some new bullshit study comes out claiming people that listen to podcasts while driving are infinitesimally more likely to cause an accident than people that listen to music, and whoops, Michael Barbaro has been your constant companion on every morning commute for the last 4 years. That’s a pattern of risky behavior.
And if they think that this monitoring is going to help anything when people know about it, they need to learn about Goodharts’ Law:
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure
As soon as this becomes a thing people will get anxious and petty about it, and they will start trying to game the system, and that system gaming will take some portion of their focus away from driving and guess what, that’s going to make them worse drivers.
That’s what we did. We were told the negative criteria were frequent driving, night driving, and all the driving BS you’d expect - hard stops, fast corners, etc. The company used a phone app, so we only installed it on my phone, had it disabled most of the time, and enabled it once or twice a week for a painfully slow drive to the grocery store just around the corner.
We had an amazing score which resulted in… No discount! We actually paid more. We got some bullshit low percentage off which was simultaneously offset by a mid-year rate increase. They claimed they had to reevaluate our rates any time they added a discount. Total bullshit.
UPS drivers have been dealing with telematics for 20+ years. It tracks stuff like whether you back before you park or afterwards. How far you back. If your seatbelt is being used. If your cargo door is open while driving. Vehicle speed. Etc.
This is actually the thing that gives me most privacy assurance. My car company does offer this as an insurance product to themselves, transparently. Since they’re honest about this part of it, and have less profit incentive to those of us who don’t agree, I’m a bit assured that they are not motivated to sell my data to my actual insurer
If you think your insurance company isn’t selling your data to other companies, you are in for a surprise.
My insurance company, for example, requires so many permissions for their app, just to show my insurance coverage. I refuse to use it because they don’t need my contacts, calendar, use details, phone information, location, network status, and whatever else they are asking for. They have no use for this information, so why would they collect it? Oh right, because they are greedy and consider customers to be multiple revenue streams.
Part of the privacy policy for using the app is agreeing to be a product for them. Hard pass. I give them more than enough money considering they have never paid out a single fucking penny for anything (tho we’ll see how I feel tomorrow when the adjuster comes out to inspect the storm damage to my roof - probably the same.)
If a scammy company like insurance is doing a thing, you can bet they are not being benevolent. They are taking whatever you give them and it will fuck you eventually.
I interact with my insurer, over the phone, through an intermediary. And of course I pay them. The only info they have is pii and financial. My driving history and score is available from the state.
My last at least two cars likely report highly detailed driving info to their manufacturers, and I really can’t do anything about it. I care enough to click “no” wherever I can but not naive enough to believe it
However my current vehicle manufacturer also does insurance. If you use their insurance, you are letting them rate your driving by every little minutia. They are less likely to sell this data because they have a product that it’s a differentiator for: it’s not in their best interest to give competitors their competitive advantage
Our insurance company offered a rate reduction if we installed a device on the cars to monitor how we drove. It we met whatever metric they set we’d get a discount for “safe driving”.
Hell no. I’m paying full price to not have them looking over my shoulder while driving.
Because you know that the data will be sold, or even used to classify your risk as a driver and potentially raise your rates. There’s nothing altruistic about these companies.
I tried it once. Installed the app on my phone. The error rate in the data they collected was ridiculously high. Get a phone call while driving? Welp, now it says you were on the phone for 45 seconds. Playing music through the stereo? No, you were clearly using your phone the entire time. Phone slides around on the console? You clearly must have mashed the brakes.
I decided that the best way for them to determine I was a safe driver was the fact that I haven’t had an accident claim in years.
I drive an electric vehicle and the unfortunate reality is, that brakes that are large enough for an emergency stop get underutilized during everyday, regenerative braking. So they rust.
My solution is: Every time I get back to our village in wet weather, I accelerate hard on the last long straight and brake hard to almost a standstill once. No more brake trouble, all four rotors squeaky clean, but any measuring device would write me up as the biggest idiot on the roads out there.
I don’t do this and my rotors are fine.
The severity of the problem depends on external factors:
- do you live in a dry and salt-free environment? No problem.
- did the maker of your car implement disc wiping as a precaution? No problem.
- did the maker of your car implement intermittent brake blending during recuperation? No problem.
- is your car less driven in wet and salty conditions and then always store in a dry, warm garage? No problem.
- does your car have drumsin the rear and near-undersized discs in the front? Less of a problem.
It’s a scam, anyway. I did it once with Progressive when I got my first car. Had good ratings, was promised a solid discount. Next bill comes and it’s the same amount as the previous bill. I call them and they say that the rate went up but with the discount it conveniently went back to the old rate.
That’s some bullshit.
I’ve had the same experience with a different insurance provider. In a different country.
They’re all the same.
To anyone who doesn’t believe you and thinks they might actually he able to get better rates through an app like that…
You know how health insurance companies charge hefty premiums with ridiculously high copays, but you figure “If I really need something covered, though, they’ll pay it and I won’t go bankrupt”, but yet they still find a way to have so few scruples that they’ll fight you on the services you have them billed for because they are a corporation beholden to shareholders and will do everything in their power to hang onto every single dollar possible?
Your car insurance is provided by a corporation.
I just want to be able to corner hard and accelerate hard and do some spirited driving in a safe area without that info getting sold to insurance companies…
LOL I always knew that creepy Life360 shit would come back to bite people in the ass eventually.
My daughter has been trying to get me to install this for years. My refusal has been vindicated! I kept telling her I don’t trust it. And she drives like me and her premiums are nuts even for her age and she’s been lucky and has a great driving record.
Jokes on them, I drive recklessly as hell and in twenty years am at fault for zero accidents, while my wife hates driving with me and drives incredibly cautiously and has been at fault in accidents. Can the algorithm see past 'this person accelerates quicker therefore should have a higher premium" because otherwise I feel like the old system was working. It was frustrating to pay more as a young male driver, but I’ve proven myself and my abilities behind the wheel and wish to continue to pay accordingly.
I drive recklessly as hell
…
but I’ve proven myself and my abilities behind the wheel
Pick one
Pick one
No. I’ll admit my verbage could probably use some work, but oh well. Many traffic laws exist to fund police departments. I obey the laws that are grounded in reality. I’ve driven professionally and if 10000 hours of practice makes mastery then I’ve easily at least tripled that, easy. If you’re imagining someone driving like a complete douche that’s probably not me, as I’m extremely considerate of other drivers, having no faith in their abilities or perceptions. But I hate being in a car and when I’m driving I want it to end as quickly as possible so I will speed through a yellow if there’s visibility both ways and no cross traffic and I will speed on empty highways and I will treat traffic lights like four-way stops if there’s no one else on the road. Etc
Sounds like something an irresponsible wreckless chode would do. I hope you’re just kidding because I wouldn’t want you to be an irresponsible wreckless chode.
It’s pretty well established that women tend to get into more accidents than men, but they tend to be minor fender benders that don’t cost all that much, while men tend to cause accidents very rarely, but when we do, multiple vehicles are destroyed and people die, and that’s a great deal more expensive in the long run. So you haven’t had an at fault accident in 20 years, doesn’t mean you won’t destroy a school bus tomorrow.
Nah, mine is pretty upfront about it. You can even opt in to get a device that plugs into your car to give them even more data to lower your premium if you’re actually a good driver. That shit started when I was still in high school, too. Nobody else remember Flo from Progressive hawking these things?
infos & some criticism of the app :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life360
(also some cars have integrated tracking)(also some cars have integrated tracking)
Pretty much every single car made in the last 5 years has it. And it’s been in cars starting in the 90s so just because your car is a 2015 doesn’t mean it’s safe.
If you care about not being tracked, look up how to remove the cellular modem in your car. I found instructions on how to do this with my vehicle and it’s pretty easy.
Till they get rid of car ownership; then you are on the hook for damaging their car.
Yeah but I’ll be dead before that happens!
Better get to it then. I’m predicting somewhere in the next 5 years, true car ownership will be dead for new cars
We’re already at that point. I will never buy a new car.
Is it different for used “newish” cars? Or were you referring to used “pre 2018” cars?
Depends on the manufacturer and model.
My driving is being non-secretly scored, I have an app just for that. Currently it just complains that I have power saving mode on all the time, so I don’t know if it’s not working or if it is and I just can’t see the results anymore. (I’m not turning off power saving mode.)
Does it actually tell you the results? I’m curious how they score your driving, and how effective it is. The scariest things I see on the road are things like:
- distracted driving
- tailgating
- lack of awareness
I don’t see how they’d measure how safe a driver you are.
Perhaps it’s just that people are more careful when they know they’re being monitored, and safe drivers are more likely to opt in?
For each trip it tells you things like how often you touch your phone, what % of the trip you spent using your phone, and how many times you braked hard (which is a proxy for things like tailgating or general inattentiveness, since it can’t see the road). Mostly it seems to be a “don’t use your phone” score. There’s an overall score, and you can see how big your discount is, but the score itself is largely meaningless without the ability to compare to other drivers.
If only we had lawmakers that kept greedy corporations in check, instead of bickering over bullshit.
Lawmakers seem to have developed a strangely keen interest in where exactly we put our dicks and the very personal repercussions of any new genetic material created from any of this dick placement. They don’t seem to have any time at all for corporate abuse of the populous at large. I guess the problem perhaps is that while corporations are people, they don’t have dicks?
Nope, because I drive an 03 Jetta lol
Edit: I’m also quite selective about the stuff I install on my phone, and nothing has “always on” location data.
And what happens when you inevitably have to change it?
If you mean my car: I am the warranty, at this point. I will be driving that fucker into the ground. And then I will find another used, fun, manual transmission car, because I absolutely hate automatic transmissions on my daily driver. Manual is way more fun and engaging. No, I do not mind using it in traffic at all, and I’ve lived in LA with a manual transmission.
If you mean my phone: I don’t understand how you’ve phrased question.
I meant, eventually you’ll run out of options and, even if buying used, you may be stuck with models that have all the tracking crap
pulls fuse for 4/5G car modem out
Oh dear! Looks like it broke!
Your move, car companies.
Edit: side note: not sure why it seems that you’re negging me for trying to wring as much life as possible out of a car? This is a very reasonable and feasible approach to take if you’re somewhat mechanically inclined, as I am.
not sure why it seems that you’re negging me for trying to wring as much life as possible out of a car? This is a very reasonable and feasible approach to take if you’re somewhat mechanically inclined, as I am.
Absolutely not. Sorry if I came across that way, I am actually on your “team” and plan to do the same with my current 7 year old car. I am not super mechanically inclined but I have learned enough for the basic maintenance: brakes, oil changes, general diagnostics.
The reason I was kind of grilling you is because I am looking ahead and thinking I will find myself in your spot. Eventually I will have to replace the car and I have no clue what to get that does not imply: 1) being spied on by the car and 2) paying for hardware that is useless unless I also pay a subscription.
Now back to the original point. Sure today you can pull a fuse and maybe disable the spying; specially since the car would be out of warranty or you don’t care to risk losing it. However, if the trends continue, this could be something that renders your car uninsurable and would mean not legal to drive.
On my last insurance renewal, Belair argued heatedly with me because I refused to add their app on my phone to track my “driver behaviour”. They insisted it would lead to a discount but I refused anyway. If they make it a mandatory requirement of insurance, we are fucked.
Fair enough. And no worries - tone sometimes gets lost or misinterpreted when commenting on the intertubes :)
Honestly, by the time we get to that point, I hope that mass transit has improved enough such that a car is no longer critical to have in most urban/semi-urban areas of America. But that also depends heavily on how politics pan out in the coming years.
For what it’s worth, I absolutely agree that the pervasive data-gathering bullshit they are trying to push on everyone is messed up.
Fair enough. And no worries - tone sometimes gets lost or misinterpreted when commenting on the intertubes :)
My kids often complain/make fun of me because I overuse the “…” they say I write too ominously LOL
Honestly, by the time we get to that point, I hope that mass transit has improved enough such that a car is no longer critical to have in most urban/semi-urban areas of America. But that also depends heavily on how politics pan out in the coming years.
For what it’s worth, I absolutely agree that the pervasive data-gathering bullshit they are trying to push on everyone is messed up.
I agree with you and hope you are right re public transit
Gotta admit I’m curious why you think that.
